Children In First Class…

As long as he’s generally well behaved, I see no issues. Maybe children shouldn’t be allowed in expensive hotels either….Or expensive cities…. yadadada the guy writing that needs to learn some manners.

This guy Prob hates kids! I dont think its a problem if most of the time he behaves.

Dan, I’m you’re admirer so I hope you don’t take offense. And I have small children who are well-behaved (FAs too come over to say so). Like you, I do take them to First cabins. The only diff is: I *am* apologetic if someone else does not like it. I’ve no choice…I don’t think putting the kids in economy is the answer…why won’t the coach folks will also think kids can be annoying. So it boils down to this for me: the guy writing the letter has a point. I only hope he could be more understanding, but I can’t say I feel great bringing kids to First, knowing others could have full-revenue passengers. P/S: Rafi looks cute! But I also think these pictures are mis-representing. It’d be more accurate if you put his screaming pics, because that was the issue at hand. Sorry!

the guy who wrote the letter is a total jerk

Unbelievable that someone would take you to task Dan for bringing a FAMILY MEMBER with you on the plane, first class or not!!! I’m appalled that someone has that attitude towards children and isn’t ashamed to write about it! What annoys me on flights isn’t the screaming toddlers or babies (after all they are just children, I feel sorry for the parents having to try to calm and distressed, unhappy infant but it doesn’t upset me)but the JERK adults. The elitism dripping from that email is incredibly repellent.

When a person purchases a first class ticket, they are paying for the service and the comfort. You are not purchasing an immunity booth where you no longer have to deal with every possible nuisance of life. Should you get a refund if there’s airplane turbulence?

Flying with young children is a part of life and the person who wrote this letter has an obnoxious elitist attitude. The people in coach paid for their tickets as well and are just as adverse to crying or turbulence, or sneezing, or whatever else might interrupt your flight. You didn’t pay for a child-free flight so don’t try to game the system and act like you did.

Lastly, if you think earning and redeeming points is gaming the system, then why are you on this website in the first place? The airlines are free to rescind their loyalty programs at any time.

I don’t believe a first class ticket comes with a guarantee of a cranky-child-less flight. If the child was seated in the first row behind first class, you would hear it anyways. Mind your own business. Jerk.

On some level I have to agree with him. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a higher level of comfort when you’re paying thousands of dollars (or thousands of miles/points). I don’t have children, don’t particularly like kids either, but I don’t think they should be barred from any particular service. If your child is well behaved, you are paying attention to them, and the outburst are minimized there really isn’t a problem.

But if First Class turns into a day care with your child screaming and running around you better believe I want you out of there.

@JS That’s a bad analogy. You don’t have to share a room with children in a hotel or stay right next to them in a city. We’re talking about a small box with no escape for hours on end. Imagine really wanting to go see a movie, paying up to 10 times the price to get the best seat in the house and then right next to you is a screaming child. Is that reasonable?

I understand where he’s coming from in the sense of paying for first for a nicer flight and a more enjoyable ride. But life is life.
Sometimes you sit next to a smelly guy. Sometimes it’s the old guy who won’t stop talking and making noises. Sometimes it’s a baby. And sometimes they cry. As long as the parents are doing their part in taking care of their child/children to the best of their ability then that’s all I ask for. And if it teaches me a bit of patience and some understanding then so be it.
If First Class were meant to be baby free than BABIES wouldn’t be allowed. But they are.

I hope for your sake you never find yourself on the plane with him either 😉

I think for the general person, it’s not right to do it, but it’s their choice, as the airlines do not prohibit it.

However, if you are clearly a religious person, it *may* lead to a CH”M. I think we are pretty strict when it comes to even a safek CH”M.

I have 2 kids who are very rowdy and can be quite annoying to fellow passengers. I try my best to contain them but there is only so much you can do to keep a 2 year old busy for a 6 hour flight to LA. I also know what it is like to have someone else’s kids screaming and kicking the back of your seat for six hours. The fact of the matter is that passengers are imprisoned for many hours with no hope of immediate relief. Those who fly in first class do so in order to avoid many of the discomforts inherent in public air transport. The question is whether one of those benefits includes avoiding the high pitched wails of children etc. Of course, families are also entitled to the comforts of first class of air travel. I would suggest a pshara. The airline should offer families a separate section in which they can sit and enjoy their travel experience without annoying fellow passengers.

If you pay so much to avoid the discomfort of coach and you never use miles, then why not just get your own private plane? That way you could avoid the discomfort of children in first class.
You never took your children with you in first class until they were ten? You sent your wife to coach while you chilled in first class? You left them in coach by themselves?
Why should coach people have to deal with crying children?
You should do something better with your time than judge people for something that isnt wrong.

In my opinion, the writer of the letter is confusing several issues.
To preface, I am the parent of 2 young children and we fly often.
First, the manner that an individual acquires an airline ticket, be it first class or cattle (coach), is of no concern to you.
Second, the airlines do NOT have rules prohibiting “age challenged” (young) passengers from flying in first class. The entrance criteria is a ticket. No matter how you obtain it (even with mileage or through getting bumped). If the airlines determine that economically it is worth restricting the first class to adults, and advertises as such, then there would be a valid claim.
Third, no matter where you sit on the plane, it is annoying and frustrating to be subjected to a crying baby. People who obtain a seat in the coach section have the same “RIGHTS” to a quiet flight as the passenger who obtained a first class ticket. Purchasing a first class ticket does NOT entitle you to a quiet, baby free, flight. It is not printed anywhere on your ticket, nor is it expressed elsewhere. A first class ticket entitles you to a larger seat/bed, in a less populated area, with better service.
What your best argument may be, is that you purchased a first class ticket with the EXPECTATION that only adults with similar means would be able to afford/obtain a first class ticket. And that expectation led you to believe that it would be a child free environment and very quite. However, you are sorely mistaken. There are some wealthy people who buy first class tickets for their babies, as well as other people who obtain first class tickets for their babies through other means.
Therefore your expectation is not solid.

What I would suggest you do, since apparently this issue bothers you, is contact the airline you frequent. If enough first class passengers complain, then perhaps the airline will adjust things accordingly. And perhaps they should. Until then, all first class ticket holders may fly first class. Even babies. And it is not an infringement of your rights. Nor is it in my opinion not mentchlach. Again, your expectation of a child-free environment is misplaced.

Best of luck!

I “hear’ both sides on this, except I strongly disagree with the posters original comment differentiating between those who paid for the first class vs those who used miles -that is irrelevent!

http://news.travel.aol.com/2011/06/28/airline-considers-banning-children-from-first-class-poll/

Eh. I just admit to jealousy. I fly in Y and have little status. But I do love to travel and believe instilling that love in others, especially while young. So quiet traveling children are a joy, crying ones I internally wish would stop, and the reality is if you can’t show some tolerance towards other people (which children are, though tiny) then air travel is going to suck even if you always fly in first.

I would prefer crying child for one hour than the “elite” guy, who don’t remember how to contain his odor, for the long-haul flight (quite recent experience on TATL B:(). You can isolate your ears with good headphones, but you can not isolate your nose.

On the other hand, I would not recommend so many long flights for small kids.

Dear Sir/Madam First Class Complainer,

Thank you for bringing up your concerns.

Once we are on the subject of concerns and issues, I am very disgusted that while I paid for first class service to fly in a peace, you ate Kosher food which did not smell as I would have like it to smell, you also removed your shoes which grosses me out, you snored for a few mins and you did not smile at me when I looked at you.

I paid for first class to not mingle with your type, I wanted to be in my own bubble. In the future please eat your meals in economy and please only sleep in economy.

Like my shrink tells me “You need help”.

Love,

Chaim Ber and his crying children in first class to aussie

I understand where the guy who emailed you is coming from.
Even if your child is “generally well-behaved” you can never really predict in advance if he will have a tantrum.
I suggest YOU and your WIFE fly first class, and take along a babysitter to sit with the baby in coach. Considering you get these tickets for free (or almost free) that would be a considerate thing to do. Obviously thats just my $.02 and personally if I was in 1st class with a shrieking child I would be OK with it as long as the parents were apologetic and doing their best to contain the situation
That being said, i think the guy who emailed you was quite rude and I hope you weren’t too sad from it.

C’mon everyone stop kissing up to Dan Be honest I have 2 kids and hate flying first class with kids that are crying. Since I paid more for the space and peace and quiet. I also slightly agree that he can be annoyed if he really knows how you got to first class and how he spent $5000 on his ticket

I commend you, Dan, for having the guts to write about this issue. I have children and travel a lot. Airlines should group families with children in one area, and restrict Business and First class to teens and older. Flyers pay for the additional space and quiet. I hope you were in your “baseball cap”, because inconsideration of other people, regardless of how well intended, is indeed a CH”M. And that’s the “emmes”. Thanks.

It really boils down to this: is it considerate to take a child on a flight at all? If no, then why is it any more acceptable for the coach passengers to be subject to a screaming baby then a first class passenger? Premium passengers are paying for the added comfort and luxury of first class, but are still subject to the realities of flying, which is being confined to a flying tube with hundreds of people for an indeterminable amount of hours.

However, we do not expect people to check in their children as they do their dogs. We can merely hope that the child is well behaved and quiet, and that the parent is responsive to any noise from the child. When taking that into account, any snobbish “not in my first-class backyard” is merely an obnoxious display of elitist rubbish. Dan, I hope that you wouldn’t be even slightly bothered by his comments. Let him complain to his over-compensated therapist and/or life coach.

Keep calm and fly on!! 🙂

Your son is sooo cute!!

First off – how you get your tickets is your business – I don’t see how that makes a difference – I say be Dan L’Kav Zchus – guy was probably on a flight with obnoxious parents who refused to deal with thier children (I’ve been on a few of those) so it’s not an issue of children in business class – but of common courtesy.

@DS:
The only part I’m not apologetic for is the fact that I used miles. I don’t see the difference if someone else paid $20,000 for a ticket and neither do the flight attendants.

If he screamed for more than the few minutes he did then perhaps that would be fair to include!

@Josh:
Sorry but why is having a baby in business/first a chillul hashem?
If you are not paying attention to the child or letting them cry without trying to pacify them, I would agree it can be a chillul hashem. But otherwise I don’t see it if you are being a responsible parent and following the rules.

@shmuel:
Exactly why I sat ourselves in the last row.

@Bob:
Bingo.

@Josh:
Definitely within the airline’s rights to do so, perhaps they will get business from the likes of my letter-writer!

@question:
It’s not bad advice at all, but that also means getting an extra hotel room for them and paying them for a week’s time, etc.

Either way Rafi doesn’t take bottles, so until he’s finished nursing (assuming there’s not another little one by then!) such an idea isn’t practical.

@We want moshiach:
If Rafi cried throughout an entire flight it would be the last time traveling with him for a long time.
However that hasn’t happened yet. I do agree that you have to know your child and their limits.

@zvi:
Perhaps they should, but as of now they don’t.

@Mendy:
😀

@Aaron:
True, that would irk me as well.

Bottom line is when this guy has his own airline he can make his own rules. Until then you are surely justified in working within the rules of the airlines you fly. Personally, I do the same and bring my kids on premium classes. At the same time, if I am travelling for business and a kid comes on, I am not excited about it but they have the right. It is what it is!

His comments were harsh, but he does have a point. however, i cant afford fist class, so i cant really offer my opinion, cause I dont know if I would have the will power to not bring my young kids. But from an outsiders perspective I think that one should not bring young children on 1st class.

While your baby might be cute and well behaved there are others who are not. Just like in fine restaurants any upscale establishments I agree that infants, toddlers, and kids should not be allowed in First Class until the age of 10 or so.

Dan next time you see him in 1st class kindly leave a dirty diaper his carry-on…

first of all he’s a cutie!

second i beleive kids should be allowed!

The writer is an absolute ignoramus. Does he think his well padded behind is more important then the passengers in economy? All passengers on all flights have the same rights. When you pay a premium for business or first class, you do so with the full understanding that I can do the same with my child, just like the person in economy. As to his “circumventing” argument, last I checked those miles are worth a pretty penny. What a fool

I flew first class from New York to Brazil and the guy next to me was snoring the whole flight!!!!! I would take a crying baby over a snoring rich old man any day of the week. Airlines should outlaw snoring! NOW!

If you want to set your own rules make enough money and fly private. Make even more (or become president) and send your kids on a separate flight (Mr & Mrs Obama if anyone recalls)
So long as the airline does not ban children from business/first, Dan have more kids and bring them all.
It’s like flying economy and hoping with that same anxiety that a large fellow doesn’t plop down in that empty middle seat beside you. Yes, the one you have been staring at all through boarding and praying please don’t occupy, please don’t occupy. It’s obviously more comfortable for others without kids in the cabin but when you fly on a commercial airline it comes with the territory. I guess economy and bus have something in common – people are praying..

No parent can predict how a chid will react on a particular day. Hmmm…nobody can predict how a certain drunk (or not)adult (*cough cough* insert any celebrity here) will behave either. Instead of banning ANYONE, perhaps there should be a policy of demoting an unruly passenger (I’ll suggest 30 mins of disruption as a benchmark, but I don’t make the rules) to the cabin class and promoting a lucky cabin passenger to first class.

simple:if its my kid then i see no problem. if its someone else’s kid then its not ok 🙂

the letter writer is 100% correct!

i don’t believe children should be allowed in first class, people pay extra (both, cash or miles) in order to have a restful flight. As a parent you will tolerate your kid’s tantrum, and/or antics – others shouldn’t be subject to the inconsiderate passenger that brings his kids to first class…

besides it’s a complete chillul hashem regardless of whether it’s right or wrong

The letter writer was harsh, but he is correct. You should know better. People look at you and see right away that your a Jew, and I agree with a previous post that this can potentially be a big Chillul Hashem.
No, paying 20,000 for a ticket does not automatically mean that you have a right to demand no screaming babies/smelly people/snorers etc.
But Dan, you should know better
BTW, don’t take my opinion personally- I still think your a stellar fellow and will always be following your site/forums, but you did ask for opinions so…

Cute pics btw!

“I have yet to hear a sound as joyous as the sound of children having fun”
Zalmi
There is no need for you to explain yourself.

@Chaim Ber: LOL

I dont give a hoot how much he paid for his ticket-Let him drive to his destination. No, i dont have young children, but i am a grandmother and my grand daughter loves to fly and is well behaved. If a kid cries, he is just being a kid. If your writer snores or b*tches and moans, he is just being a jerk- somehow he obviously thinks he is “entitled” and needs to get over himself.

Dan,

You were very wrong. I love the smiling pics of your kid that don’t show his howling and wailing during takeoff. I have 2 kids who are very well behaved, and would NEVER take them with me in the first class cabin. My wife and I fly solo for those trips. Get a babysitter (and a life)!

@karen: Very nice for a supposedly frum person to be name calling. I have been traveling by air since I was 5 years old and I’m 67, you do the math, if you can! I make a minimum of 15 trips per year, previously it was more liked 25 to 30 with 50% being intercontinental, my frequent flyer points are earned by flying as is my elite status on mulitple airlines. I have a right to complain, when I pay first class fare to China and have to listen to an infant crying or a toddler “Mommy I’m bored” Are we there yet? And this goes on for the better part of 14 hours. As one previous person stated while there are no restrictions on children in First Class, when you pay 6 to 10 times the price of a coach ticket there are certain expectations. And while you leisure time flyers make 1 or 2 trips a year those of us who are on a plane with any frequency appreciate the benefits we are afforded & PAY for. If you consider that snobbish, so be it, however when was the last time you contributed your miles to fly an sick person somewhere or when did you use your miles to upgrade to first class a soldier returning from Afganistan at the gate. I did on my last trip to LA. So as to who is a jerk and who is not, I exhibt common courtesy to the staff, I’m not abusive and when I don’t get my kosher meal I don’t rant & rave, I just request that they please be so kind as to heat up the meals I brought with. And since I’m always recognized by attire as an Orthodox Jew, I do all I can to make sure that I leave the non-Jews with a positive experience and not a Chilulm Hashem. Are you able to say the same? And not once did I find it necessay to resort to name calling. Perhaps you need to take the time to read the ArtScroll book GPS, Navigation for your Soul.

@Zalmi: I have Silence on a 12 or 14 hour intercontinental flight

@Tickedthisisbeingdiscussed: Please read post #43 as it applies to you as well!

One big elitist! WOW!

I hope you fly and disturb him again!!!

I have traveled many times with children in both first and business class. While I beleive that there are people who want a “Quiet Bubble”, there are others who want to move around, talk and read. Like trains, maybe there should simply be a quiet/sleeping section.
The airlines clearly set the tone. I’ve traveled on Asian carriers, (e.g. Asiana, DragonAir, Thai, Emirates) which clearly made everyone feel special. Asiana even sent my youngest towards coach for a 1/2 hour for a campy magic show. The tone is very different on US based carriers, and usually comes with a side order of hostility.
It’s easy to blame Children, Senior Citizens, or angry people. It’s all about meeting expectations, which once you compare airline advertising vs reality…The children are far more honest about missed expectations than the rest of us.

Since when does “first class” mean no children allowed?
A person who sits in economy has the same right to peace and quiet as anyone else, but the fact is there are kids in this world, and those kids sometimes will fly on planes with their parents, and unless they come up with a rule that says kids can only travel by car, boat and train, you stand the risk of having a kid near you on a flight. This issue has nothing to do with kissing up to Dan or with how you managed to get to first class- this issue also has nothing to do with first class itself. Someone can be annoyed that there is a kid crying near him on first class and he can also be annoyed if a kid is crying next to him economy, or in a bus, or in a restaurant- That being said, suck it up! Life has some annoying aspects. If the kid is totally acting up, a decent parent will do what he/she can to stop it. Unfortunately there are limited options on an airplane, other than locking yourself up in the bathroom or parachuting down. It sounds like this letter writer believes that Dan should have moved into economy class with his shrieking child so than the lower class citizens there would be the ones to deal with it. Really nice guy. He is a first class dude- just without the first 2 letters in class.

I take my kids first class including the babies and I DON’T think it should be allowed! It actually pi***s me of especially on a transatlantic night flight when someone else has brought their kids! But no rules are being broken and if someone wants a kid free flight let them fly by private jet. It’s almost the same price as full fare first…except when the taxpayer is footing the bill 99% do NOT pay the full fare for first…it is usually an upgrade from biz. But how one gets a first class seat is irrelevant! Airlines should ban children in first in order to provide a better service.

@Howard:
Are you the writer of this letter?

@Dovid:
🙂

@Mark the Shark:
Stay classy there.
If my son was weaned or took bottles then a babysitter may have been an option. He is not and does not so the options are for me to stay grounded (I’m sure that would be your preference) or to mildly inconvenience other air passengers and do my darned best to make sure that inconvenience is close to nil.
Which if you asked any of our fellow passengers or FAs is exactly what we did. Nice touch to add “howling and wailing,” to my comment that he cried turning takeoff for a short while until he was put into his own carseat.

But good for you for not sharing your love of luxury travel with your kids. I’m sure they’ll remember you fondly for that.

@Howard:
Wow you contributed miles! In that case you must not be an elitist snob.
Glad to know you are keeping track of where I tithe my income to and to whom I have given miles to.

“I exhibt common courtesy to the staff, I’m not abusive and when I don’t get my kosher meal I don’t rant & rave,”

Good to know that you “exhibt” common courtesy to them. Shame you don’t “exhibt” it to your fellows online.

@DanG:
Yup.

@Daxet:
He is.

@Dan: Sorry for not quoting you exactly, so here it is: “After Rafi cried hysterically during the entire takeoff (and plenty of looks that could kill from other passengers that I don’t blame them for)”

You may not “rant and rave”, but we’ve all read your many trip reports where you insist on complaining about every little thing. Your current trip, where you stayed in the lap of luxury, had some very minor problems, and you insisted on seeing what options are available to switch rooms.

I would hate to work at the hotel when you’re there or be a flight attendant on a flight with you! I’m sure your wife must be SO embarrassed! It must suck to be her!

@Mark the Shark:
I was curious to see the difference between the palace and modern wings. The clerk said she gets that all the time and was more than happy to show us both rooms.

But 1,000 apologies to you, master of all etiquette. I also apologize for apparently kidnapping your firstborn or something else I must’ve done to you that apparently was truly terrible.

And yes, it surely must stink to have to travel the world in first class, while putting up with me asking if we could put our baby to sleep in an empty seat as is the policy on most airlines or asking for a standard 4pm late checking so that the baby could get a nap. How dare I ask for such things!

@Howard
Karen is a member of ddf. IIRC she is not frum/(Jewish?).

@Howard
Very nice that you donated and also very nice that your a frequent flyer. It doesn’t make you not part of society. Every place you go there will be people – and all types – babies, teens, ols people, smelly people, noisy people, annoying people. Its about time you learn how to share the planet with them.

Btw do by any chace have kids??

@Letter writer, you’re very selfish. Learn how to live within society.

@Dan
I hope you don’t get turned off from him. I hope to see you in first class in a couple of years with your gantze mishpacha 🙂

i brought 3 kids with me in first class including a 1 year old, I can sit there just like they can, bH kids were ok

Im going to take the other guys side, I have a toddler as well as big kids. Infant doesn’t belOng in business class! But if I had my noise canceling headphone, I would have given it over to him!
How did he know who you are to send you an email?

This thread seems to have more activity then the trip report so here… http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/21832#comment-126573

This is exemplifying fighting with in the Jewish community and is a chilul hashem in it of itself.
@Howard: 1. I don’t think you know how much tzedaka Dan does or doesn’t give. 2. You agree that airlines allow children in first so you can’t expect others to comply with your will when it contradicts the airline’s policy. To complain is lowering yourself to the supposed image of Dan who complains to flight attendants if he doesn’t receive his kosher meal. I would suggest investing in a good pair of noise canceling headphones) 3. You personally insulted Dan’s intelligence level, but you never name called. really? I am glad you feel justified with your actions in this petty argument, but you may want to reconsider if you aren’t being hypercritical.

@Mark the Shark: I am not sure why you think Dan doesn’t publish derogatory comments. Could it be you have an agenda or dislike for Dan. You lowered yourself to the same level of chilul Hashem when you called his readers dumb. I don’t think that hundreds of readers who sympathize with Dan in this case are are dumb (myself included.)

@Dan I wish you never posted a personal Email with out the express permission of the author first. You could have simply posed the question on DDF which may have been a more appropriate place. I sincerely hope you do not heed Mark the Shark’s challenge to post derogatory comments. When you deal with dirt you become dirty. Calling Howard a Jerk was not nice and I hope both of you can agree to disagree on a trivial issue (compared to the very real problems that people deal with everyday) like bringing children in first class and realize that you are both men of honor and kindness.

@Dans Deals Community: I come here for deals and to save money. Please do not turn this website into the coffee room on YW or other such websites were mudslinging is common. It makes me very sad to see people fighting especially when they are frum yidden.

Everyone have a wonderful shavuos! May we all have the free flight of a life time, and meet up in E”Y for the true purpose of matan torah fulfilling a far to long journey that will end once we can just love one another for who they are.

@Nechemia
He wasn’t on the flight with Dan. He read Dans trip notes.

Have a great yom tov!

@Nechemia:
@deal lurker:
Lol… 😀
At any rate AA gives top of the line Bose QC15 noise cancelling headphones to everyone.

Hi Dan
I work for a luxury bus line that runs a salt luxury bus from NYC to DC its called Vamoose gold, people pay more than double the regular price to get on to the gold bus and yea you could use your points from traveling the regular bus and claim it for a upgrade or full free ticket and people come with children and infents, maybe one in 6 years we heard a complaint about it otherwise I don’t see what should be wrong

Oh brother! Kids are people too. I someone is willing to pay either hard earned money or hard earned miles to have their kids in first class that’s their right.

It’s not that my 4 year old is the problem…it’s her Mom who is a basketcase…

@luxury bus: Nice to know a vamoose employee comes on DD, I am friends with the owner of vamoose really nice chasideshe guy!!!

Next they’ll want to differentiate between fat and skinny travelers, travelers with BO or too much perfume, bad breath or snorers…come on!!! What about the guy who drinks too much or chats incessantly.

I agree 95% with him. If you are flying with children, your number 1 concern should be, be considerate. The part I don’t agree with, is his stupid yuppie attitude about how he pays a lot of money, blah, blah, blah.

I’m sure your child was a model traveler but if there was a no kids in 1st class rule up for vote, I would vote for it.

@Steve Finn:
Perhaps, but the point is that there are no “No kids, drunks, snorers, smelly people, etc” rules now. We’re not debating making new rules, but what is allowed or overstepping the boundaries under the current rules.

If the airlines deemed it profitable to have such a rule they would have instituted it a long time ago, but they’re obviously happy with the extra revenue that these people provide up at the front of the plane.

I have no problem with a well behaved infabt/child in FC cabin. I do have a problem with adults that drink too much and are loud & obnoxious. I also have issues with the passenger(s) that has to speak loud enough for the whole cabin to hear. I wish they’d rock themselves to sleep.

Why does it matter what you paid for in cash or points? Equal treatment is expected within the class. If your child cries it is annoying in first or coach. The expectation anywhere in the cabinet is that the parents do their best to comfort their children and be mindful of passengers.

Personally, I don’t mind kids in premium cabins. However, nothing pisses me off more than parents not doing anything when their kids are throwing a fit or crying for a long time. I also would be pissed if the kids are running up and down the aisle while making a lot of noise. If the kids are quiet and stay at their seats most of the times then life is good.

No children under 10 in premium seats on award flight. My kids are great, yours make too much noise and are inconsiderate. See the dichotomy? We all see our own as angels…
TRAVEL IN COACH WITH SMALL CHILDREN OR DON’T TRAVEL ON MY PLANE!

I’m not going to read ALL the comments as this is a subject with 100 page threads on FT…

To the people who “pay” for their comfort and service (usually in that order) of F: We all “pay” for it somehow. Miles aren’t free, you earn them. System wide upgrades aren’t free, your really earn those.

I want my first class experience to be free of self-entitled adults, drunk businessmen, surly flight attendants, and extremely loud talkers (including FAs) that don’t let me sleep on long flights. I find I run into 100 of those for every 1 screaming baby.

Nobody wants a screaming kid- MOST of all the parents of said kid. Sometimes you have to live with it, like you have to live with all the other A-Holes that fly today, like the writer of the above letter.

Dan- your kid is adorable!

I pray to God when I am in First Class that there will be no kids there. And actually I’ve never seen kids there either. I know it’s not nice, but in general, I don’t bring my kids (unless I absolutely have to) when I fly, for the exact same reasons that kids are rowdy, and other passengers are stuck there either listening to other people’s kids screaming, crying or even unless they are reading or sleeping, they are listening to parents talking to their kids non-stop, or parents pacing the aisle comforting the kids. It’s annoying beyond believe, and I do perceive those parents who bring their kids onboard (unless they absolutely have to…so vacation does not count) as selfish.

Class has much more to do with being gracious and kind than what you pay. It might not be a kindness to bring a small child to interrupt a discreet, luxury experience even if it is technically allowed. It is definitely not class to launch a public tirade. But as long as we’re on the subject, let’s talk about bringing back first class by dressing well.

The writer of the letter is extremely self-centered and snobbish. When paying for first-class you should expect a better seat, early boarding, better service, free food and drinks, etc. You are not paying to sit with a better class of people, more refined people, quieter people, prettier people, better behaved people, etc. As members of society we should encourage and be thrilled to see families doing things together, including traveling.

Parents should always do what they can to ensure their kids are well-behaved and respectful in public places, whether first-class or coach. Other human beings should always be tolerant of children and parents when they aren’t perfectly behaved. Children can’t as easily control their emotions as adults and sometimes even the most well raised child misbehaves. Parents of misbehaving children should do their best to control them and might even feel the need to apologize to those around them. However, they should never be made to feel like a horrible person because their young child misbehaved in an environment that is foreign to them (plane) during a time that can be stressful and far from their normal routine and sleep pattern.

On a plane, as a parent, you just do your best, you have no option of getting up and leaving. This is different than a similar situation in a 5-star restaurant. If you chose to take your children to a fancy restaurant or a formal event like an opera. If your kids misbehave there, you should be expected to either get them under control quickly or leave.

Perhaps the complainant should fly small charter jets. That is the only way to ensure total seclusion from other passengers.

I think he has a point. I have three kids – so I’m not a kid hater 🙂 But it’s true.. People pay a lot of extra money for their space, privacy, and comfort. Bringing a kid to first class is sorta ‘taking’ that away from them if the child ends up disturbing others around him/her.
Just because Rafi is usually a good flyer is a bit of a justification because in the end of the day, kids are unpredictable and they do intend to cry, especially the longer the flight, the higher the probability.
Should that take away your right for flying First with your kids, I don’t know. But I do see where this guy is coming from.

I personally wouldn’t do it. I’d take kids in Business but not First Class. It’s not a good look regardless of what race or religion you are.

However I’m referring more of a bigger family. With just one kid and well behaved then that’s fine IMO.

hey dan, wow harsh letter esp right before the holidays…. scary even…..i dont get it honestly at all. i sit cattle coach bec i just started out a yr ago with thtis whole point system, but i dont get this guy at all bec when why is it any diff why in coach? i hate the kids that scream, why should it be any diff bec i paid more for my ticket?!? meaning, i paid for the coach ticket so whys it ok for crying babies in the bak?! second of all, why is he looking at yenem?! was he on YOUR flight at all and even if he was was he on the one that rafi cried for 20 min?!? then who the heck cares that rafi flies first clas?!? on the contrary!! KOL HAKAVOdD dan and mishpacha! i wish i can fly biz so if i cant should no one?!
another thing i dont get; if rafi were to have start crying then u would just take him to the bak and wait till he is good…is this the guy whose kid cries all flight while he smiles how cute his kid is?!?! probably! dan – i have no kids and i have flown plenty and i never had a bad eye on a kid who flier biz/first it doesnt hurt me at all! of course no one wants kids crying is he idiotic, so bec he pays more money this way he doesnt have to look at kids?! if u ask me sounds like the guy thinks ,money takes away his problems or prevents them, but why is that the mehalech?! i think he has a point of ppl should be considerate but i am taking it for an obvious that you know that and you have flown enough hours to know how to be considerate to others! my god, u have right ups all the time on who was nice and which hotel has good service etc…of course youll know that when ur kid is screaming ud take ur kid out! whats this guy thinking?!

*….was he on the one rafi cried for 20 min?!

@howard:
wow i am surprised someone can actually say things like that…so thats how u give charity?! to soliders?! thats nice, does it make u feel better you got somesolider to fly FIRST?!?! i know ppl who dont have food…oh and there actually jewish too! i can give u some numbers to big ppl to help u with ur charity. also are u dans accountant, u seem to know his expenses! but how much help has dan given the jewish community?! a lot more that a first class upgrade to a solider i promise u that!!! i am newly married and money is not flowing and dan has helped me with countless of things to save us money! be it the phone which is free, or be in the flights, or even just the clothing i wear on a regular basis….no….but YOU UPGRADED A SOLIder…get a grip buddy! ur 67 what are u so worried about…. i promise u that 6 feet under there wont be crying babies…does that make u feel better?! why u so worried how rafi flew!?
dan is the most neutral person i know on a website how can anyone have any issues with im…..all he does is just post deals…what the hek has he done to anyone!? bec someties he post a deal and the reposts it that it got better?!?! c’mon!!!
@mark the shtark:
a real hater..wow u gotta get a hold of urself and stop letting this get you! what are you?! who are you?! ur a sick fellow that can say such a thing about someones spouse!!!! u really are! what tye of person would ever say that to someone else…YOU DONT EVEN KNOW!!!!! ur a fake as a perosn and ur hiding behind the text! wow! i flabbergasted

If you can’t deal with a kid in first class, take a helicopter or a private jet.

As far as I’m concerned he could be loud, smelly, and unpleasant….. if the airlines allow it, and you have the means to fly first class, then sucks for everyone else now doesn’t it? Not your problem!

I hear both sides of the argument, but I lean toward the letter writer although I’d have expressed his sentiments in much nicer terms. For the record, I have six kids and rarely travel with them, but when I do, I try my hardest to keep them well-behaved. I don’t ever get upset at people with kids. I try very hard to reassure them that their kids are fine and not bothering me even if they’re screaming. If I was in First Class, I’m not sure I’d be as understanding.

as a travel agent i see both sides of the debate how you get to fly business or first is irrelevent to flying with an infant btw for your info(am not sure if this is their current policy as i dont have any first class passengers flying with infants)but as 4 years ago EL-AL didnt allow any infant under 2 in first class even for money and as we see from this letter writer their is good reason for this policy your infant doesnt care where he sleeps where is the people who pay $$$$.$$ to fly business or first do so knowing they will have a quieter and more comfortable flight by you bringing in a toddler into this exclusive section your ruining the trip for everyone else ultimately if the airline allows it no one can stop you but their is always the chillul hashem aspect to be factored in
you can always try get your inlaws or parents to watch him (or use miles to fly along a babysitter in coach class seems you have an unlimited supply)

I took my 10 month old on a transatlantic flight, and she sat with me in first class. And no, I did not get the ticket on points. It was the first time my husband and I got to sit in first claass. We weren’t sure what the people would say when they saw us board with a baby. But we made sure to board as late as possible, (to give her time to move around), and we took the back row, (so we could walk out of first if she was making too much noise, though I am not sure it would’ve made anyone in the regular seats happy). We did get some looks when we sat down, but in general the people all smiled back at her. She behaved really well (cried for a few seconds during take off), and slept thru most of the flight. On the other hand, the lady sitting across from us,must’ve had some medical issues, and wasn’t so pleasant to sit near. I would’ve been happier to have another baby there.

I guess any passanger can cause issues, so just going off about bringing a baby into first class, just lacks of class!!

@TZvee:

Especially on this Memorial Day weekend, lets support our troops. Upgrading them to first class is obviously a very small gesture, but it is something. We can never repay their sacrifice, but we should at least remember it.

Wow! All I can say is, I feel bad for Howards kids. I really do.

. . .Back on topic, I think that its fine to bring babies into first class as long as its not against the airlines’ policy.

Btw Rafi looks very cute 🙂

in my opinion it isnt dans fault or the other guy who is complaining i think its the airlines, by now online when ur purchasing your ticket and seats in any class you should be able to see not only which seats are available but which within those unavailable seats u should see that those seats have a baby young enough not to have its own seat or a child old enough to have its own seat. and also in this mattter probably list for each occupied seat the age group for each seat, like “student” “senor” “infant” “child” yadda yaddah.
let me know what u think about my opinion.

@Elisheva: i forgot to mention that since the airlines will be mentioning that on occupied seats people can then choose there class, there seat or worse case can choose to opt for a different flight.

I fly between Tel Aviv and the US quite often- approximately every 6-8 weeks, and always fly United Coach. About 4 weeks ago when I was coming back to Israel from Newark, I was seated in row 32 (there are two premium/bulkhead rows on the 777, 16 and 32)and there was an infant right near me(bassinet seat) and a toddler behind me. I did ask the flight attendant if she would perhaps keep her eyes open for an empty seat elsewhere,as I was not only exhausted from a 3 day business trip, but knew that I was coming back home to five kids and if I didn’t catch up on my shut-eye during flight time, I lost the chance. I must say that the flight attendant was great! She moved the infant in the Row 16 bassinet back to 32, and switched myself and the person seated next to me up to 16. May I add that I was in that row as a Premium flyer, but the passenger near me had paid extra for extra leg room. The flight staff themselves commented that there should be some kind of system where infants/toddlers are concentrated in a few rows.
May you have nachas from Rafi, and thanks for a great website.

you can always tell the complainer that he can fly private!

This is a tough one. As a teenager, whenever I traveled on international flights and there was a crying baby, I used to b*tch about it. Now I travel with my young son (16 months) quite often, and while he is mostly cheerful and friendly, that is not always the case.

Bottom line, now I look at things differently. Is it because I became a parent, or is it because I matured and grew up a little?

That’s why they invented Bose headphones

dan , i didnt read the previous 86 comments , & i admire and love what you do in this blog . However its great that you can find the best way to get first class seats for nothing ,however by bringiing kids into the mix isnt fair to other travelers . its as if you said that you found a way to make and recieve cell phone calls in flight while thats cool & some carriers are starting trials like that , no one around you that is sleeping will enjoy it

if the child does not behave and cries for a big part of the flight. it would be disrespectful and a chillul hashem to fly in first class. however if he is well behaved than lucky rafi!

if you fly first class or not first cLASS. if you pay or get it for free it should not matter you are there because you have a ticket. if there was something wrong with it the airlline would hav rules but they do not so DAN KEEP ON DOING WHAT YOU DO BEST!!!!
GO RAFI!!!!

and i think the guy is just upset that he didnt know how to get First class for free and he had to pay …..

The idiotic comments stating that a crying child is a chilul hashem is astounding. The chilul/kiddush hashem is all in the parents’ reaction.

@Howard: Round of applause!!! U give miles andhave multiple elite status’ WOW! take your rant elsewhere you angry old fart. U sure do alota bitching for someone sonunderatanding. Its gota burn paying 10k for a seat most of us can get for free.

@Yitz:Very nice, calling people names. I’m sure you are a very ehrlich person NOT!

@Howard: Never claimed to be! Besides dont you think its time to at least act ur age if not grow up.

forget about first class, he looks heaven!! can i babysit???

If he hate kids that much, let him charter a jet…

@Jimgotkp:
Agree 100%.
If the parents are not proactively trying to calm down kids/babies in coach or first that is not cool at all.

@Mikael Stranberg:
Your plane may need to be a private one…

@TZvee:
I think being considerate is definitely the key, and people will appreciate that onboard.

@ari:
It’s easy to say to just get a babysitter.
1. It’s still a huge expense besides for the airline miles and hotel points.
2. This is also a big point I haven’t even brought up yet, for flights to Argentina on AA there is almost never any coach or business availability. So it’s either redeem for First or don’t go. Go check that out for yourself if you don’t believe me!
3. When you have a child that is still nursing and doesn’t take bottles having a babysitter doesn’t help anything and leaving the child at home with someone doesn’t work either.

@Aaron:
Like I said in the post 😀

@Jaicky:
And give them out for free on AA!

@zeke:
Strangest analogy I’ve ever seen.

@esty:
😀

DAN
cant argue your points,well taken

As long as you are responsible, and try to minimize their crying, theres no diff between 1st class and coach.
By the way, do you have any experience in asking the airline for some sort of credit for being stuck near a crying baby on a flight? 1st class or coach?

I do have a baby son, but I have no plans of flying first class with him. That said…I think there are two sides here.

I understand his frustration – first class or not, it’s never fun to be on the same plane as a crying baby, and paying for a first class ticket only sharpens that feeling.

HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that it’s wrong to bring a baby on board, first class or coach. Sometimes You’re doing everything right, and it’s still frustrating to someone else. If you build a legal (by US and halacha) extension to your house, and it cuts off some of the view from your neighbor’s porch…well, that’s frustrating for him. Does that make you wrong? Ditto for putting a driveway in, even though it limits the number of parking spots on your block.

There are all sorts of things that we do which, unfortunately, are an inconvenience for someone else. His feeling of frustration is valid – his expectations are not.

When paying for a first-class ticket, as everyone has pointed out, there are no guarantees. There might be a smelly old lady, a snoring old man, a crying baby, an overly-friendly neighbor, an angry person…the possibilities are limitless, and getting first class gives no promise that your flight will be perfect. It simply gives you a higher chance of avoiding inconveniences of all kinds – including crying babies.

I love kids!

It does not make a difference if you pay with points or cash.
Some people get paid for their jobs, in cash, other such as Dan get paid in points.
If you do not like crying baby’s take a private jet!!!

I have never experienced a bad child in first. They always seem to be much better behaved than the kids in coach.

Rafi is adorable. What a beautiful child!

Please lets stop fighting like children (in first class).

Moral of the story:

Elite narcissistic flyers:
Bring an ipod/pad with headphones to drown out a possible lowly non-elit crying babying in first class.

Parents with undeserving first class tickets:
Bring some toys and and ipad with games for your kids.

Case closed.

Next up: The case of the Toilets in hotel lobbies being used by undeserving frum Jews dating there.

Dan you are the best thanks again another trip on points, Just came back from London today with my 2 kids on BA Club World.
I didn’t find such … on my flight, no one had a problem with my 2 young ones even in the lounges when they were running around, on board they were sleeping lucky me for those great beds.
Been on first class already, I think club world is better when flying with a family, seats are closer to each other and enough for the kids to share the bed.
keep up the great work!!!

@Howard:

So you fly 15 trips a year. Woop de doo! So do many of us…I fly more like 100/year. I fly in F as often as i get upgraded and know whats its like to sit there with someone else’s child. When i fly with my 2 small children, i also fly in F or C (int’l). When i see another child in F or C, I am understanding as i know what its like to be a parent. When my own child cries, i am apologetic and carry him to the back so he/she doesnt disturb anyone.

Do I think you have a point and a right to be annoyed when there is a child disturbing you? Yes. The expectations you speak of for paying 6 to 10 times the price of a coach ticket is what YOU expect. Its what YOU want. Nowehere does it say that by purchasing such a ticket will you get peace and quiet. Its no different than a child crying at a nearby table in a restaurant. We all (including children) have just as much of a right to be there.

If we are at a nearby table in a nice steakhouse and i am using a gift certificate…do you have more of a right to be there because you paid for your steak? Absolutely not. Will i take my child out if he starts crying? Of course!

Get a grip buddy and act your age.

P.S. What a tzadik you are for giving tzedaka to the soldiers. Personally if i were going to give a Evip/SWU or some AA stickers to someone it would be a rosh yeshiva or great rov…OUR leaders and role models.

@David: I am not a Tzaddik nor do I pretend to be one, but thank you for considering me one, albeit sarcasticlly. I’m so glad to hear that you have so little regard for our men & women in uniform. With out them we would not enjoy the freedom we do. I was in the US Army for 6 years, during one of the most trying points in US history Vietnam. I was drafted after my college deferment expired and while I could have claimed citizenship in another country I chose not. I am not mentioning this for for acknowledgement, merely to point out where my respect for those who serve originates. When I meet a serviceman returning from a combat zone I feel if I am able to do that small act to say thank you I will. If you take exception to that so be it. However I still vivdly recall my return stateside when I was jeered amd spat upon by my fellow countrymen. It is a sad day when all we think about is ME ICH! I have a right to do this & do that & I really don’t care how it affects any one other than myself, if I can do it so be it! Rebbetzin Jungreis wrote an article several weeks ago in the JP regarding her recovery in Scrpps Howard in CA, may she have a complete Refuah Shelumah. She relates how it was for an observant person in a totally non observant enviornment. The bottom line of the article is what kind of immpression do we leave on people, and her final comment was ” what type of calling card are you leaving”. My expectations are not unreasonable ones and are shared by many as evidenced by the numerous comments posted in agreement, so much so that even one airline (Maylasian) small though it may be has restricted access to 1st class by travellers with infants and small children. So it is a complaint that is being made by many and one that is being heard. Perhaps you are respectful and remonve your crying child and as you said go to the back of the plane to share his/her crying with those in coach or take them out of the five star restaurant so other patrons may continue to enjoy their meal. Very considerate on your part, however that is not the case with most, the disturbance continues. One final note it puzzles me as to why people who go under the guise of a Shomer, Torah, mitzvah Yid must resort to calling another derogatory names? Is that condoned by the Roshei Yesheiva or Rabbonim? Not being accusatory, just wondering if you have an answer? BTW, I truly am acting my age, and have a very firm grip, in spite of the vituperous & vitriolic comments previously posted. What does make me wonder is why Dan chose to make public a piece of correspondece intended for him and turn this site into a puiblic forum which it seems is not.

obviously if you bring a child on the plane and that child cries, yells or whatever it will annoy people. if your on a greyhound bus it will annoy people and if your in a supermarket or even in line at an amusment park.
nobody likes it when kids make a ton of noise.

bose sells some wonderful headphones that make kids quiet! 😉

I do think maybe airlines should ban children in fist class, but until they do, we can all take our families there!
BTW your son is adorable!

Hey Dan

I think you have every right as a paying passenger to be able to sit where you please. I know that you most likely book more with miles then actually pay for but as long as they charge more miles for first/business then they do for coach and as long as you are willing to use those miles, you are just as entitled as a paying customer.

I can say with experience that I have often been bumped to first class on numerous flights and often because I am not dressed like business person in a suit, I often get stared at by those who are flying first (hey my belief is that when you are flying always dress comfortably.) There is no entitlement because someone paid for a first class fare, in fact unless things have changed recently, an airline can demote a passenger from first to coach if they don’t check in on time. I know this because I was bumped onto a flight and there was no first class seat available to put me in so I was rebooked in coach, but because I was polite, the gate agent commandeered a seat from a first class passenger because they failed to check in at the required time (I am not sure however if that person checked in at all but if they did then they were forced to sit in coach.)

There are three things a person who works in the airline industry once told me that you are entitled to when sitting in first and that is better service, better food and fresher air (yes the air is fresher in first class as it is passed through the cabin from the front to the back).

And in response to that message sent to you, I would look at it this way, there is no way to sit in first class and avoid a screaming baby/child on a long-haul flight (except on a 747 maybe). More often than not, airlines put families with young children in the bulk-head section of the plane. And, although some planes can have more than one, there is still one that is right behind the first class section so if you were seated there then what difference does a few rows make really. In fact, you only sat one row ahead of that bulkhead row so the difference was less than minimal in my opinion.

If the guy wants to continuing complaining that he spends so much money on first and wants a child free flight then maybe he should consider spending more and just charter his own flight. Or maybe he should invest a couple hundred bucks more on some Bose headsets. But as long as he chooses to fly commercially he accepts all risks associated with flying commercially whether it’s a crying baby or a puking seat mate.

Sorry for a rambling reply but some people just make me sick with such elitist attitudes.

My husband and I were once upgraded to first class on a flight (we are frequent fliers and have high status rankings) and by the front desk by the gate we were told that children were not allowed in first class and therefore one of us would have to stay in economy with our baby… (we both sat back in economy with the common folk…)

@BEM684: Wow. Absolutely Loathe inconsiderate people like this guy sounds. These are the ones that coz problems in the first place. You have have the right sneeze like animal on everyone around you as well. Loser!!

Okay, Howard. Here’s the thing. I think you need to stop worrying about how other people share your space and think about your own blessings a little bit. How did you get First class tickets? If you used miles or upgrades, you’re doing exactly what you resent Dan for. If you forked over big bucks to buy the tickets, you’re either filthy rich, in which case you should be thanking God for your own place in life rather than resenting others’, or you’re wasting money throwing away big bucks for a few hours of comfort. If you’re not filthy rich, maybe consider investing those big bucks in your grandchildrens’ education or something.

For one reason or another, you are FORTUNATE enough to be able to fly F while the vast majority of us unwashed masses are in the back. If you think you’re there all because of your own God-free greatness, you’re just plain wrong. You’re there because you are FORTUNATE enough to have been blessed by the right circumstances to get there.

So take out those earplugs that come in your amenities pack I hear F flyers get and stick ’em in your ear if you can’t bear the sound of a whining kid and close your eyes and thank God for your own lot in life rather than trying to deprive other people of their comforts.

Or you can just not.

Either way, as one of the vast majority who never get a sniff at the F cabin, I’m not shedding any tears of pity over your plight in having to sit near a loud child in your lap of luxury.

Respectfully,

We just flew buisness class with our two babies (6 month oldm and 19 month old)….almost all business passengers seemed ok, with it and actually even complimenetd us at end of flight how well behaved they were 🙂

Hi Dan.

I didn’t read all posts only your article, but I must tell you, you have a very very sweet, charming & innocent little boy!

Enjoy it to its utmost!